Some Interesting But Irrelevant Issues

Post Reply
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:43 pm

Some Interesting But Irrelevant Issues

Post by johnkarls »

Editorial Note: The issues discussed in this exchange of e-mails, though interesting, are not relevant to the questions of (1) whether there may be malefactors that will want to buy out the hydrogen-extraction technology in order to kill it, and (2) whether we should mount one of our Six-Degrees-Of-Separation E-mail Campaigns aimed at preventing that.

---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
Subject: Re: All Hands On Deck Emergency
Date: Sun, October 27, 2019 11:36 am MDT
To: Calvin Burgart
Cc: Linda Chalfant-Allen; George Kunath

Dear Cal,

Thank you very much for your e-mail.

I agree with your second sentence that all avenues need to be researched.

Which, of course, is why Reading Liberally is considering a Six-Degrees-Of-Separation E-mail Campaign to try to protect the new hydrogen-extraction patents from a malefactor that would like to acquire control of them in order to kill the technology.

But as our resident nuclear expert, you have “left me in the dust” for understanding your first sentence.

According to Proton Technologies Corporation, the owner of the patents, the technology comprises injecting oxygen into the heavy-oil/tar-sands underground reservoirs and coal seams to react chemically with the oil/tar/coal to release the hydrogen they contain to float to the surface through filters that will trap behind all of the remaining elements – especially carbon.

[Presumably, as speculated in our Original Proposal’s Section 3 entitled “The New Possibility of Vast
Amounts of Hydrogen Fuel” (available at ... 561&t=1834), the chemical process is: 3O2 + C6H12O6 > 6H2 + 6CO2.]

I am inferring from your first sentence that heat is required to drive this chemical process.

[After all, as noted in the same section of our Original Proposal, NASA informs us that the earth’s atmosphere is 21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen and 1% various other gases (including carbon dioxide). And putting sugar (C6H12O6) on the dinner table does not cause it to burn (aka oxidize) just because it has been exposed to air!!!]

[And we are both old enough to remember François Truffant’s 1966 film starring Julie Christie and entitled “Fahrenheit 451” which is the “flash point” of paper – in other words, the temperature at which paper will catch fire without being exposed to an external flame. BTW do you know what the “flash point” of sugar is?]

Accordingly, you seem to be implying that the new technology requires the application of heat in addition to the injection of oxygen.

BTW, would it be possible for Proton Technologies to drill through the oil/tar/coal formation to a deep-enough level that geothermal heat can be accessed and brought up to the oil/tar/coal formation to drive the chemical process???

And also BTW, where do you think Proton Technologies Corporation would be getting all the oxygen that it is injecting??? [I would imagine that separating oxygen from the rest of the gases in the earth’s atmosphere – which presumably is the only source that would provide the vast amounts of oxygen that would be required for the scale needed for the new technology to have an impact on Global Warming – can’t be cheap.]

I’m sure you probably took into consideration all of the foregoing when you composed your first sentence.

But I hope that just because you have both a B.S. and PhD in nuclear engineering, you won’t begrudge raising the level of understanding of someone who did not (except for a lifetime of reading) venture past undergrad Chemistry 101 and Physics 101.

I look forward to your response.

Your friend,
John K.

----- Original Message -----
From: Calvin Burgart
Sent: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 23:10:59 -0600
Subject: Re: All Hands On Deck Emergency – Possible Global_Warming_Solution_(Hydrogen_Extraction)_In_Danger_Of_Being_Killed!!!_–_Proposed_E-mail_Campaign_For_Our_Nov_13_Meeting

Dear John,

There is also waste heat from LFTR nuclear reactors to do this. All avenues need to be researched.


On 10/26/2019 6:06 AM, wrote:
To Each of Our 163 Members One-By-One – for reasons explained in the 4 postings in Sec. 2 of

Dear Friends,

Next meeting – WED evening Nov 13 – 7:00 pm - 9:00 pm.

Venue – Salt Lake Public Library (210 E. 400 South) – Conference Room C

Salt Lake nonresidents are invited to participate by Skype

Please RSVP to

Our Monthly “Short Quiz”

The Short Quiz is available at ... 563&t=1841.

The Emergency

Hydrogen is a carbon-free fuel – burning (oxidizing) hydrogen produces only water (2H2 + O2 > 2H2O).

The problem heretofore has been obtaining hydrogen economically and in enough quantity to make an impact.

On 8/1/2019, Proton Technologies (an Alberta Canada corporation) claimed to have discovered how to do both for which it has obtained patents.

The problem is that in this world “everything has its price” and there is nothing to prevent Proton Technologies and/or its shareholders from “selling out” to a malefactor (such as Saudi Arabia) that would like to kill the technology.

Details of the “Original Topic Proposal” are available at ... 561&t=1834.

Including at the end one of our proposed Six-Degrees-Of-Separation E-mail Campaigns to prevent the technology from being sold to a malefactor that would like to kill the technology.

Please join us on Wed evening Nov 13 to address the problem.

Focus Book – Reference Materials

This will be one of our atypical meetings for which there will NOT be a focus book but instead, we will be focusing on whatever articles, etc., that our participants post in the “Reference Materials” section of (currently the website’s tenth section) and on whatever comments our participants post in the “Participant Comments” section of (currently the website’s ninth section).

We hope to see/hear all of Wed evening Nov 13.

Your friend,
John K.

PS – To unsubscribe, please press “reply” and type “deletion requested”

Cal Burgart
Site Admin
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:46 pm

Using Nuclear Energy To Produce Hydrogen Fuel

Post by Cal Burgart »

. ... 7odmiaoDNA

Inventive Nuclear Plants Think Beyond Electricity to Hydrogen
By Matt Wald – Senior Communications Advisor –
November 14, 2019

Today, nuclear reactors produce electricity and are the largest tool to decarbonize the power grid. But soon, they may be producing carbon-free hydrogen that will clean up other industries, including steel, agriculture and even the gasoline-powered car in your driveway.

Four utilities that collectively operate 30 nuclear reactors are now working with the U.S. Department of Energy to hybridize some of their plants into machines for making both electricity and hydrogen. The work is part of the department’s hydrogen production initiative, H2@Scale.

Idaho National Laboratory is working with three companies: FirstEnergy Solutions Corp., which operates nuclear plants in Ohio, Xcel Energy Inc., which runs reactors in Minnesota, and Arizona Public Service Co., which operates the largest nuclear installation in the United States, Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station in Arizona. At the same time, another part of the Energy Department, the Office of Efficiency and Renewable Energy, is helping to fund a project at an Exelon Generation reactor.

Exelon is partnering with Nel Hydrogen to demonstrate that hydrogen production equipment can be operated remotely, and “dynamically,” meaning that its operation can be quickly scaled up or slowed down.

“That could help the whole power grid become more flexible while we maintain and grow clean energy sources,” said Lara Pierpoint, director of technology strategy at Exelon.

Some parts of the grid are now flooded with more electricity than they can use when wind and solar farms produce vast amounts at moments when electricity demand is low. The Department of Energy wants to solve this problem and will pay for half of a $7.2 million hydrogen demonstration at an Exelon Generation reactor. If a reactor could divert some of its electricity into hydrogen production, it would be instrumental in helping the grid cope with these overloads. And if the hydrogen is not used for industrial purposes, it could be turned back into carbon-free electricity when needed via a fuel cell or simply being burned.

In fact, producing hydrogen from a carbon-free source like a nuclear reactor could accomplish multiple goals. The hydrogen also can be used to make ammonia, steel or other industrial products. Or it could be used to upgrade heavy crude oil to make gasoline or diesel and even to upgrade plant-based oils so they can be used for motor fuel. If zero-carbon hydrogen replaced natural gas currently used at oil refineries, it could shrink the carbon footprint of the gasoline that runs today’s cars, even before cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells are widespread.

Exelon’s project will establish what regulatory hurdles need to be overcome. And it will make hydrogen in the conventional way, running an electric current through water, and separating the hydrogen and oxygen, a process familiar to generations of high school chemistry students. There are more efficient processes, requiring higher temperatures than today’s reactors achieve. Some of the designs for advanced reactors include plans to use their higher heat levels for splitting up water molecules.

“We have to innovate, broaden our horizons and explore new energy technologies,” said Pierpoint. “It is important to think across the traditional silos as we seek to use more zero-carbon nuclear energy.”

FirstEnergy will also make hydrogen from electricity from one of its reactors and provide it for use by bus fleets and for steelmaking.

Hydrogen production can be more efficient at higher temperatures, and Arizona Public Service will explore using heat from a reactor in addition to electricity. Xcel Energy, a major producer of wind power, will use electricity from a nuclear plant to make hydrogen at hours when wind production is high and would otherwise result in having to reduce the output of a reactor.

All four of these companies are pioneering the use of nuclear energy to produce hydrogen, all without carbon emissions. These innovations make nuclear carbon-free energy even more valuable to our efforts to protect the climate.

Post Reply

Return to “Participant Comments - Possible Global Warming Solution (Hydrogen Extraction) In Danger Of Being Killed!!! - Nov 13”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest